[linux] I will be setting up 2 linux servers

Thu Jul 8 08:54:20 PDT 2004

Hi Phillip et al,

I was never able to get Kerberos working on Debian.  I think the 'Non-US'
software port must have been the problem.  But there too is a problem I
think.  Debian tries to be all things to all people, and its distribution
system can be very confusing.  Remember that most professional admins
are not Linux specialists, and they don't have time to go searching
through the different port trees of Debian just to find that package,
especially one as critical as Kerberos.  With the other distros, SuSE and
RedHat, their method for selecting packages is simpler (some might say
'dumbed-down').

As for porting problems with Debian, I can't explain those as well as I
would like, but I do sysadmin stuff for Bothell's CSS department (the
equivalent of CSE in Seattle Campus).  One professor wanted to port his
own compiler (originally built on RedHat 9) to Debian to see if it worked.
It never really did.  He had seg faults, and even after it compiled right,
it crashed badly.  I suspect some of this is the use of RedHat specific
libraries, but all the same, in the academic field, RedHat is considered
the standard.

In my previous job in Microbiology, there were a number of research apps
that were only supported on RedHat (and SuSE to a lesser degree).  Debian
was never even listed as a supported Linux distro.  In my current job,
certain research apps such as the Portland Compiler, Gaussian 98 and
others are only supported and working on RedHat.

It's this kind of support that can make a difference.  As admins, our job
is to provide seamless support to our clients, and if we're tackling
issues such as a bumpy install process, or compiling problems, on our
favorite Linux distro, then we probably shouldn't be using our favorite
distro.  It's just nature of the beast.  I am not a huge fan of MS, but
there are times when it just delivers what I need it to to our customers
better.  On that line of reasoning, I think RedHat, in my experience, just
delivers better in a production environment that Debian.

That doesn't mean I necessarily like RedHat better personally (personally
I am a huge fan of OpenBSD), but it just works better in my experience.

Hence my discouragement of using Debian.

Doug McLean
CSS Systems Administrator
University of Washington, Bothell
http://staff.washington.edu/dougmc/pgp.html

Meanwhile, in Gotham, Phillip Garland wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Doug McLean wrote:
>
> >I have to agree.  I think Debian has its merits, but for work-related
> >production systems, you cannot afford to use a distro like Debian.  Debian
> >lacks certain critical software (for example, there's no Kerberos software
> >at all), and has no vendor support.  My biggest argument against using
> >Debian, though, is that it is not a industry standard Linux distro.
> >RedHat works very closely with Dell, which works closely with UW.  So, you
> >are more likely to get good hardware support if you have Dell servers from
> >RedHat.
>
> Are you sure about Kerberos? To conform to (now-defunct) US crypto
> export regulations, Debian had to put Kerberos in it's "Non-US"
> repository for the current Stable (Woody). All you should need to do
> have it available for installation is modify your apt.sources file
> and do an "apt-get update".
>
> Kerberos should be in "main" in Testing and Unstable, but I can't
> speak to how complete or well integrated the implementation is.
>
> I believe it is possible to get paid support for Debian, from HP for
> example.
>
> >Before I upgraded our workstations from RH9 to RHE, I briefly looked at
> >other distros hoping to find a good, free, alternative.  Debian definitely
> >wasn't it.  Our software didn't port well, and other configurations had to
> >be radically redone.
>
> If you have the time, I'd be curious to know what the porting problems
> were.
>
> >Debian also is significantly more difficult to install/configure for new
> >Linux users.  For Linux-heads (like most of us here), Debian is a fun
> >alternative to use, but if you are new to Linux, and you need to install a
> >server or two, you can't spend time trying to figure out that 'bf24'
> >installs the 2.4 kernel on the Woody distribution.
>
> I'd agree about the initial install & configuration, but after that's
> done with Debian is wonderful- I haven't used a RH system for almost 4
> years though- maybe they've improved.
>
> >
> >So, I definitely very strongly discourage the use of Debian in production
> >environments, unless it would be used as a niche workstation of some sort.
> >For servers, SuSE or RedHat is a much better alternative.
>
> While being aware of its fault (the release cycle). I'd still
> encourage people look into Debian, depending on their needs. The OP
> seems to need RedHat specifically, which is completely fine with me.
>
> >Doug McLean
> >CSS Systems Administrator
> >University of Washington, Bothell
> >http://staff.washington.edu/dougmc/pgp.html
>
> ~Phillip
>
> >Meanwhile, in Gotham, Phillip Garland wrote:
> >
> >> If the system is connected to the internet, you probably don't want to
> >> run "Testing" (Sarge). Testing is the slowest to receive security
> >> updates (Packages don't move from Unstable to Testing unless they've
> >> had no Release Critical bug reports for a 10 day period, IIRC).
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, Stable (Woody) is so old (you get to choose between
> >> Linux 2.2.20 or 2.4.18, IIRC) that it doesn't support some recent
> >> hardware. Of course, you'd always have the choice of upgrading the
> >> kernel and XFree86, either by pulling packages from a 3rd party
> >> repository, or by rolling your own.
> >>
> >> I love Debian, but be aware of the tradeoffs imposed by its release
> >> cycle when using it on a production system.
> >>
> >> ~Phillip
> >>
> >> On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, K. David Prince wrote:
> >>
> >> >Question is: What do you want to run on your servers?  If it's all
> >> >off-the-shelf applications, you might want to consider Debian.  The
> >> >package management system alone is well worth the effort of installing
> >> >Debian.  The "new" testing repository installed a complete system via the
> >> >net as smooth as glass on one of our HP machines.
> >> >
> >> >Go to <http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/> for a look.
> >> >
> >> >Dave
> >> >
> >> >On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Jairo O. Piñeros wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hello
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I need some help.  I am building 2 linux servers for the Graduate Medical
> >> >> Education.  We have to purchase 2 copies of RedHat Enterprise Linux AS
> >> >> Version 3.  The servers will be HP.
> >> >>
> >> >> . How do I go about this?
> >> >>
> >> >> . Does campus have a license?
> >> >>
> >> >> . Does it include support? Or
> >> >>
> >> >> . Where do we support from?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> . Does any recommend a particular HP servers?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Thank you.
> >> >>
> >> >> PS. FYI - I will NOT be in the office July 8th and 9th.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks
> >> >>
> >> >> --Jairo O. Piñeros, UW Medicine, IT Services
> >> >>
> >> >> VM 206.685.2884
> >> >>
> >> >> PG 206.991.8848
> >> >>
> >> >> Work Hours: 6:00 am to 2:30 pm Mon-Fri
> >> >>
> >> >> Alpha pinerosj-pager at mcis.washington.edu
> >> >>
> >> >> Alpha 2069918848 at page.metrocall.com
> >> >>
> >> >>  <https://valkyrie4.mcis.washington.edu/OnCall/>
> >> >> https://valkyrie4.mcis.washington.edu/OnCall/
> >> >>
> >> >>  <https://valkyrie4.mcis.washington.edu/OnCall/lib/tso/doc/on_call_schedule>
> >> >> https://valkyrie4.mcis.washington.edu/OnCall/lib/tso/doc/on_call_schedule
> >> >>
> >> >>  <https://valkyrie4.mcis.washington.edu/OnCall/lib/person-list>
> >> >> https://valkyrie4.mcis.washington.edu/OnCall/lib/person-list
> >> >>
> >> >>  <https://valkyrie4.mcis.washington.edu/OnCall/lib/tso/member-file>
> >> >> https://valkyrie4.mcis.washington.edu/OnCall/lib/tso/member-file
> >> >>
> >> >> Privileged, confidential or patient identifiable information may be
> >> >> contained in this message. This information is meant only for the use of the
> >> >> intended recipients. If you are not the intended recipient, or if he message
> >> >> has been addressed to you in error, do not read, disclose, reproduce,
> >> >> distribute, disseminate or otherwise use this transmission. Instead, please
> >> >> notify the sender by reply e-mail, and then destroy all copies of the
> >> >> message and any attachments.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> "The best way to predict the future is to invent it." --Alan Kay
> >>
> >
>
> --
> "The best way to predict the future is to invent it." --Alan Kay
>